The Zen of Fiberglass Repair with Rhonda Schwab

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When Dubside discovers a crack in his fiberglass kayak after a trip to Delmarva, he and Andrew hit the road in search of answers. Their journey takes them to Gig Harbor, Washington, where Dubside reconnects with an old friend—Rhonda Schwab, a longtime kayak repair expert and the founder of Kayakers Go Coastal.

Rhonda has been fixing kayaks for over 25 years, and in this in-depth conversation, she walks Dubside through the art of fiberglass repair—from emergency field fixes to full gel coat restoration.

This is the first episode of The Dubcast with Dubside recorded entirely on video, and it’s part how-to guide, part reunion, and part love letter to the kayak community of the Pacific Northwest. Whether you’re a seasoned paddler or just curious about how to keep your kayak seaworthy, this episode is packed with expert tips, practical advice, and plenty of kayak nerdiness.

LINKS:

Kayakers Go Coastal

Top Kayaker

Transcript

ANDREW:

Hey everyone, this episode of The Dubcast with DUBSIDE: including the interview with our guest Rhonda Schwab is our first episode recorded entirely on video, so if you’d like to watch the video version, I have it on my YouTube channel. The link is in the show notes.

ANDREW:
So, it's Tuesday, June 3rd, and we're on our road trip, going through Tacoma, headed toward Gig Harbor, where we're going to be talking with Rhonda Schwab, who's been prominent in the Washington kayaking community for a long time. How do you know Rhonda?

DUBSIDE:
I think I first, I'm trying to remember. I must have met her at some of the symposiums in the area, like the West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium. Well, those years with the West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium, in its heyday, you never know it's the good old days until they're over.

ANDREW:
That's right.

DUBSIDE:
That was a high point in this area of kayaking activity, I think.

ANDREW:
Going to symposiums was a great deal, because you can get all your instruction there…

DUBSIDE:

…and you can try out all the different kayaks from the manufacturers. 

ANDREW:
They always had some great speakers, too. Nigel Dennis showed up, Derek Hutchinson.

One of my favorite parts of the symposium was watching the rolling demo.

DUBSIDE:
Well, thank you.

ANDREW:
But you know, it wasn't only you. The first one I actually saw was Chris Cunningham, and he brought his homemade folding wooden Greenland skin on frame, really low volume. The skin, which was coated with black Elasto-Seal, a waterproof, flexible roofing material.

DUBSIDE:
And that's the one, in his book, at the end of his book, he's got a chapter on building a folding skin on frame kayak.

ANDREW:
Oh, he does? Okay.

DUBSIDE:
Or one that you can take, you know, you scarf some of the joints, and you have a zipper in the skin, and that kind of thing.

ANDREW:
Yeah. And that was the first time I actually rolled with a Greenland paddle. A couple of the SSTIKS pioneers were there, Henry Romer and Tim Mattson were teaching that class.

And later on, I actually got to teach a class on my own, a few years later. Warren Williamson and I were on the beach, and one of the organizers saw us, and they said, “Hey, you guys look like Greenland paddlers. We need someone to teach a Greenland paddling class.”

DUBSIDE:
They were talking about that year, or the next year?

ANDREW:
No, it was like at that moment.

DUBSIDE:
How does that work for the insurance? 

ANDREW:
I have no idea. It was probably not a wise thing for me to do that, because I don't have any protection. You know, if someone goes out there and has a bad outcome.

And in fact, Warren and I took these people out there, and one of the guys was obviously anxious, and he was like, “I've never been out this far before!” 

But I guess the regular Greenland paddling instructors were held up, or there was some kind of time conflict, so they needed someone to take over the class.

When you do that, you realize there's a lot more to teaching than just knowing how to do it. It's one thing to know how to do something, it's another to teach it. 

This is Gig Harbor.

DUBSIDE:
This is The Dubcast with Dubside.

RHONDA:
All right.

DUBSIDE:
And it is, today is June the 3rd, 2025, and I'm sitting on, this body of water is called, part of Puget Sound somewhere, right? What is it? 

RHONDA:
Colvos Passage.

DUBSIDE:
Colvos Passage. And somewhere back there we have Mount Rainier, right? That's an incredible view.

RHONDA:
Yeah.

DUBSIDE:
And this is your house. You see this every day.

RHONDA:
I see it every day.

DUBSIDE:
So I'm here with my friend Rhonda Schwab, who I've known for a long time, and I haven't seen in a couple of years. I'm very happy to see you again.

RHONDA:
Thank you. 

DUBSIDE:
So you know all about fiberglass repair.

RHONDA:
Maybe.

DUBSIDE:
More than I do.

RHONDA:
That's right. That is right.

DUBSIDE:
So I have someone's fiberglass kayak right now, and it has, it came back from Delmarva with kind of a crack on the gunwale, like through to the gelcoat. You can see the white part underneath, right? Now, my little that I do know about fiberglass kayaks is that you don't want the water to get inside to the fiberglass. That's not a good idea.

RHONDA:
Right.

DUBSIDE:
So why is that not good?

RHONDA:
Well, because the fiberglass soaks in the water, and once the water is in there, it doesn't come out. You can try to dry it, use hair dryers, heat, lay in the sun. You might get some of it coming out, but for the most part, it likes to hold on to the moisture.

DUBSIDE:
Okay. And so if it just stays in there, what's the problem there?

RHONDA:
Well, it just makes the boat heavier. You just keep adding weight to it.

So when you have a crack and you can see the fiberglass, you want to cover it. Now, there's several things you can do before you actually do a repair to protect it.

DUBSIDE:
What's that?

RHONDA:
Well, so we're going to mention some names here. So there is Gorilla Tape.

DUBSIDE:
Oh, yeah.

RHONDA:
Now, not like your Duct Tape, but Gorilla Tape Clear. It's a water resistant.

DUBSIDE:
Clear Gorilla Tape.

RHONDA:
Yeah.

DUBSIDE:
They make other versions of it?

RHONDA:
Yeah, they do. They make it like a Duct Tape, and you don't want the gray. You want the clear.

DUBSIDE:
Clear Gorilla Tape. Right.

RHONDA:
And it's a water resistant.

DUBSIDE:
Having been a sound man, there's Duct Tape and there's Duct Tape. There's the real stuff, and there's the crummy little stuff you get in the dollar store that's kind of worthless.

RHONDA:
Right. Well, and Gorilla Tape, they make several brands. They make some heavy black stuff, and then they make some gray stuff. They make a clear.

DUBSIDE:
Gorilla is the brand name, though, isn't it?

RHONDA:
It is.

DUBSIDE:
Okay. They make several different versions of it.

RHONDA:
So you want to get the clear, because the clear you can put on there, and it's easy for people who are repairing the boats to get it off. It stays on. It protects the boat from water getting into those cracks.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
So until you can get it fixed, put clear Gorilla Tape on it.

DUBSIDE:
Right. Okay. Sounds like a good idea.

So you said there were a couple things you could do. That sounds like the main one. Anything else?

RHONDA:
Well, that's the main thing you want to do. After that, you definitely want to get it repaired.

DUBSIDE:
Okay. So in my situation, since I've never owned a car in my life, I have this fiberglass kayak, and so taking it somewhere is just not going to happen. So it's looking like it's going to be a do-it-yourself kind of a job.

And one other little piece of understanding I have is that you want to do it outside. You don't want to do it in your house because of the fumes.

And if it's the wintertime, you're just going to have to wait.

RHONDA:
So you're going to use that clear Gorilla Tape.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah, until then. Right. All right, all right.

So once I actually want to do the whole thing myself, tell me how that works.

RHONDA:
So if you have a garage, that's the best place to do it in.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
But if not and you have to do it outside, make sure that your weather is going to be good. You don't want it to rain.

DUBSIDE:
So what kind of weather do you need? Do you need no rain?

RHONDA:
No rain. You want the sun to be shining, would be nice. Even if it's 65 and it's overcast, it's okay too.

DUBSIDE:
Okay, but at least like 65 or something.

RHONDA:
Yeah, 65, at least 65.

DUBSIDE:
40 or 50 is no good.

RHONDA:
You could do it then, but it just takes longer for it to dry.

DUBSIDE:
Oh, yeah?

RHONDA:
You know, you're using a gel coat with a catalyst in it that sets it off, which hardens it. And if it's too cold, it takes longer.

If it's 65 or warmer, it can take up to an hour, maybe two hours, depending.

DUBSIDE:
So if the day is that temperature, I mean, in the evening, it might go down to 50, but as long as you got a couple hours in the day to start, then it gets to set up right.

RHONDA:
So as an example, let's say you come out in the morning and it's a nice day and you start to work on it, but you can't finish it and you have to wait till the next day. Well, can you get moisture at night when the sun goes down? You're going to need to cover that boat.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
So it doesn't get any moisture on it.

DUBSIDE:
All right.

RHONDA:
Because that isn't going to help it.

DUBSIDE:
So if it's, if the, if the break is, if you can see through to the inside, how do you, what's the basic process of how are you going to patch this? What are you going to do?

RHONDA:
So, and is this what your boat is doing?

DUBSIDE:
A little bit. Yeah.

RHONDA:
A little bit. Okay. So first of all, you want to go on the inside of the boat if you can reach it. You want to sand it and clean it. And you want to prep it by wiping it with acetone or alcohol. I use acetone.

DUBSIDE:
Sand it or clean it means with an electric sander or just with sandpaper?

RHONDA:
No, just, you want to use an 80 grit dry sandpaper.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
Just sand it up in there, clean it all off. Cause you're just trying to get salt water off of it. You know, any kind of particles that you would have gotten into it from being out in the water.

You just want to clean it up with the sandpaper, wipe it off and then wipe it down with acetone.

Now what I do, let's say we have an area about this big, right? I take and use a 3M tape and I tape around the area I want the fiberglass or I want to put resin.

DUBSIDE:
So you got to go all the way wide enough to be outside of the whole damaged area.

RHONDA:
Exactly.

DUBSIDE:
Which could be like three inches by five inches or it could be.

RHONDA:
I normally go about a half an inch away from the crack or the area I'm working on. And on the inside of the boat, I use a fiberglass mat.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
You know, I could go get samples and show you, but I'm not going to do that.

DUBSIDE:
There are different types of fiberglass mat.

RHONDA:
There's a cloth, which is woven. Then you have a mat that's just kind of all matted together, which I like the best because it molds better to shapes. Whereas the cloth, because of that webbing, it's harder to get it to go flat in certain areas of the curve around corners.

DUBSIDE:
So if you've got a flat area, then the woven is going to be fine. But if you have some weird contours in there, that's a little trickier.

RHONDA:
But on the inside, I normally use mat anyway. So fiberglass mat, you want to cut it to fit. And then you want to get a marine resin.

Now that's different than gel coat.

DUBSIDE:
The gel coat is the second part, but this is just on the fiberglass itself, right?

RHONDA:
Right. So on the inside, you just want to use a marine resin, okay?

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
It works better on the inside of the boat because it's a little tougher, all right?

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
Now with the resin, you want to get enough to cover that cloth, all right?

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
So you'll lay it on wax paper, the mat.

DUBSIDE:
So to get this marine resin, it's called marine resin?

RHONDA:
Uh-huh, it's just marine resin.

DUBSIDE:
Now I've read about there's stuff called vinyl ester and there's stuff called polyester. What's that all about?

RHONDA:
That's more of a gel coat.

DUBSIDE:
Okay, that's in the gel coat. So we'll get to that.

RHONDA:
Yeah, the gel coat is more for looks and to protect the fiberglass on the outside of the boat.

DUBSIDE:
So marine resin, anything that says marine resin, that's the thing?

RHONDA:
Yeah, you just want a clear resin.

DUBSIDE:
How small a quantity can you buy that in places?

RHONDA:
Probably a quart.

DUBSIDE:
A quart, okay. Which is going to be a lot more than for a little crack, right? Does marine resin have a limited shelf life or you can keep it for a long time?

RHONDA:
I've had marine resin or resin in my shop for maybe up to as long as a year. Yeah, you might be able to get, I think a quart's probably going to be what you're going to get. And you'll get it at most hardware stores.

DUBSIDE:
Hardware store, okay. Roughly, what's that going to cost?

RHONDA:
Oh, that's a good question.

DUBSIDE:
I mean, not more than like $5 or $10, but like $20, $30, $50?

RHONDA:
It probably runs $15 to $20.

DUBSIDE:
$15 to $20, okay.

RHONDA:
It might be less depending upon where you buy it.

DUBSIDE:
All right, okay.

RHONDA:
So anyway, you want to get enough, you use a small little Dixie cup and just pour enough in there to cover your mat.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
All right, so you're going to lay that mat on a piece of wax paper, all right?

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
You're going to pour this resin on it and you're going to let it soak in. You're going to rub it through there with like, I use tongue depressors.

DUBSIDE:
Okay, this stuff here though, we don't want to breathe that or that's a different stage?

RHONDA:
No, you don't want to breathe it and you probably should be wearing a mask.

DUBSIDE:
A mask and outdoors with some breeze blowing around to keep the fumes. Okay, got it.

RHONDA:
And you might even want to wear some safety glasses in case anything splashes up.

DUBSIDE:
Okay, good idea.

RHONDA:
Okay, and definitely you want to wear gloves.

DUBSIDE:
Like any kind of latex like...

RHONDA:
Yeah, whatever you can wear. Some people are allergic to latex, so you want to get a glove that you can wear.

DUBSIDE:
Like the first aid kit kind of gloves, that kind of gloves will work.

RHONDA:
Something you can just throw away because you don't want to keep them.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah, okay.

RHONDA:
So once you pour the resin on this and smooth it out, you're going to pick that wax paper up and go inside the boat wherever it was damaged, and you're going to put it right on that spot.

DUBSIDE:
Okay, like lifting the wax paper and then pushing it with the wax paper on top of it. Okay.

RHONDA:
Yeah, because you're using the wax paper as your shelf for holding the fiberglass. And then you're going to push it up against the spot. So let's say it's got a curve to it and you've got your wax paper, you just shove it up in there, smooth it out with a paintbrush.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
Leave it, and probably in about 30 minutes you can pull the wax paper off if you want to.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
I normally leave it on and wait an hour or two and then go back and check it. Should be dry by then. Take the wax paper off, then you've got all this tape around it.

Hopefully you haven't covered any of the tape, but you can always use an Exacto knife and you can cut to trim the edges to get that off. So you have a nice area.

DUBSIDE:
Of the fiberglass mat you're cutting around the tape.

RHONDA:
Or just don't put the tape on it because it won't matter. It's inside the boat. No one's going to see that but you.

DUBSIDE:
Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah.

RHONDA:
And you may not even see it if it's in a hidden place.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah. All right. Now that, you don't need any gel coat there that's inside the kayak, right?

Or do you do?

RHONDA:
That's in the inside of the boat. So the resin is the gel coat, but it's not called gel coat. It's not a gel coat.

It's a different product for the inside of the boat. It hardens. It sets up so that it'll be nice and hard and firm.

You've got that mat in there. So nothing can come through it. All right.

But when you pour your resin, you've got to have a catalyst. And wherever you buy your resin…

DUBSIDE:
I was going to say you got to mix two things, right? So this is.

RHONDA:
Right. So wherever you buy your resin, they'll sell you a little tube of catalyst.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
It's just a small little, a couple of drops. For a tablespoon of resin, you could use three drops…

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
…of the catalyst, which will set it off to harden.

DUBSIDE:
All right. Now, if you get this wrong and use too much or too little, what happens?

RHONDA:
It doesn't set up and…

DUBSIDE:
It just doesn't dry or just it won't stay on the thing or what happens?

RHONDA:
It’s kind of tacky.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah.

RHONDA:
Feeling like, you know, you're touching gum or something. It's just tacky.

DUBSIDE:
Like even after waiting hours and hours, it never gets… It'll still be sticky.

RHONDA:
And you know how you fix that?

DUBSIDE:
How?

RHONDA:
You do it again. So you just set up your resin.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah.

RHONDA:
And you put your catalyst in it and you take a paintbrush and you just go over what you've done. And that will harden on top of what you've done.

DUBSIDE:
All right. So once that's dry and on there, like you might sand that down a little bit to smooth it?

RHONDA:
You shouldn't have to, because you've got your wax paper on there. And you're making it nice and smooth. So you shouldn't feel anything.

But I would run my hand through it. See if any fibers came up and then take a little bit of sandpaper and lightly sand it. And you should be fine to go on the inside.

DUBSIDE:
That's the inside.

RHONDA:
That's the inside.

DUBSIDE:
So now we're on the outside. So what happens on the outside?

RHONDA:
Well, you want to get, I use Dremel tools with sanders on them. And I clean the area by roughing it up a little bit.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
So let's say you've got your gel coat and it's cracked right in here, right?

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
So you want to take your Dremel tool and you want to clean up around those edges, right at the gel coat edge.

DUBSIDE:
All right. Smooth all that down all the way around that.

RHONDA:
You don't need to really smooth it down. Just make sure all the loose pieces are gone.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
And then you can use acetone to clean it up. I always tape the outside.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
Okay. Because I don't want it traveling all over the place.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
And you have to set the boat up in such a way, and you said it was the gunwale, so it's the side of the boat.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah.

RHONDA:
So you're going to have to turn it on its edge.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
Because otherwise it's going to run down. You don't want to do that.

DUBSIDE:
Oh, anything you put on there is just subject to gravity. Is that what you're talking about? Okay.

RHONDA:
That's why it's important to tape it.

DUBSIDE:
Okay. And tape, like a masking tape kind of stuff, a thicker tape would be better, right?

RHONDA:
Not really. I use 3M, the blue delicate tape like painters use. And that works the best.

DUBSIDE:
The blue tape stuff. Okay. All right.

So you got the tape on, and we roughed it up with the Dremel tool. Then what happens?

RHONDA:
Clean it with acetone.

DUBSIDE:
Acetone, yeah.

RHONDA:
And then you're ready to put your gel coat on. Now, there's gel coats, and there's epoxy.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
I don't use epoxy because, personally, I don't like it. It runs too easily. It doesn't dry like I like it.

Whereas a gel coat with polyester resin in it is what I always use.

DUBSIDE:
All right.

RHONDA:
So I have white, I have black, I have clear. I only have those three.

DUBSIDE:
All right.

RHONDA:
Now, I probably have 20 different pigments. Yellow, red, blue.

DUBSIDE:
So, like, patching the thing is one thing. Trying to match the color so it looks good is another factor. If you didn't care about... If it was white, it would be very simple, right? You just use white, and you're done.

RHONDA:
And some people just use white, and they just use black because they don't have all those pigments.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah.

RHONDA:
I love matching the color, so I do that. Why don't you just bring me your boat, Dubside?

DUBSIDE:
How am I going to get it all the way across the country?

RHONDA:
Maybe I should come to you.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah, we can do that.

RHONDA:
So, anyway, so you want to get...

DUBSIDE:
To buy gel coat, how much do they give you?

RHONDA:
Well, I buy it by the gallon. You don't want to do that, but you can buy it by the quart, the pint.

DUBSIDE:
Because you're only going to need a little, a pint or less, right?

RHONDA:
I don't know, but that's how they sell it.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

RHONDA:
You might be able to buy a repair kit that has pigments in it and just a little bit of gel coat in it. I don't know.

DUBSIDE:
So, like, a pint of gel coat is costing, like, a neighborhood of what?

RHONDA:
$60, $70.

DUBSIDE:
Okay, it gets a little expensive. All right.

RHONDA:
It's more expensive, yeah.

DUBSIDE:
All right.

RHONDA:
And the shelf life on something like that is, if you keep it in a not-too-cold and not-too-hot environment. I never bring them in my house. They're always in my garage.

It's not a heated garage, but, oh, they can last me up to a year.

DUBSIDE:
Okay. So, if I've got one crack in a fiberglass kayak and I fix that and I'm not expecting anything to break for another year, I just spent that much on lots of chemicals and didn't use them.

RHONDA:
True, but think about it…

DUBSIDE:
So, I find a friend who needs their kayak.

RHONDA:
But think about it like this. If you took it to someone to have it fixed, it's probably going to cost you a couple of hundred dollars.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
You're doing it yourself, so you're learning a skill. Okay, so you have some extra resin left over, but you probably spent $100, right? Maybe your time.

DUBSIDE:
But if you're starting from scratch, you've mentioned a Dremel tool, some sandpaper. Dixie cup's not going to cost a whole lot, I'm sure, but Dremel tool. 

RHONDA:
And gloves.

DUBSIDE:
If I don't have any gloves, if I don't have any of that stuff, that adds to the cost of the thing. I'll have the Dremel tool from then on, but still, it's an initial investment.

RHONDA:
That's true. But, you know, Dixie cups don't go bad.

DUBSIDE:
True.

RHONDA:
And your acetone won't go bad. But it's just the other products.

DUBSIDE:
Acetone comes in like a gallon or something?

RHONDA:
Well, you can buy them in smaller quantities. I think you can buy a pint or quart.

DUBSIDE:
Acetone in general is some pretty vile stuff, right?

RHONDA:
It is. Use gloves and try not to breathe it.

DUBSIDE:
Like if you try to get away with just using rubbing alcohol, that wouldn't really clean it as much.

RHONDA:
You could use rubbing alcohol. I like acetone because it really just cleans the whole area. It gets rid of all the contaminants that might be on the fiberglass.

DUBSIDE:
It being so nasty comes into play because it's nasty enough to get all the dirt off. It was milder, then it wouldn't do the job very well, right?

RHONDA:
There's new boats out there. They're called thermoforms. And I really kind of like to refer to them as PVC pipes because it's a plastic like that.

And they're very lightweight. People love them. And they're easy for them to pick up and put on the car, pick up and take to the water by themselves.

But if you drop it, it kind of shatters. And so I repair those.

DUBSIDE:
Really? Is that totally different from fiberglass?

RHONDA:
Oh, totally different from fiberglass.

DUBSIDE:
Different chemicals, different everything.

RHONDA:
Well, no, you only use rubbing alcohol with those because acetone is not good for it. They make a two-part epoxy adhesive that you use on that only. No acetone on it. No gel coat, no resins. Just a two-part adhesive.

So you're gluing it back. So I get them in white and I get them in black and I get them in clear.

DUBSIDE:
All right. Yeah. But that doesn't apply to my case because I got a fiberglass.

RHONDA:
No, your case is different. 

DUBSIDE:
All right. So now, weren't you sometime back in the past selling a little repair kit, like fiberglass repair kit?

RHONDA:
Yes, it was North Sea Resins. It was a kit that you could actually sand the area with just sandpaper, wipe it off with a little rubbing alcohol, and then you would squeeze this stuff onto it and put a clear cellophane on top of it, smooth it out, and put a light on. Like when you go to the dentist, they put a blue light on you.

DUBSIDE:
A UV light to get it to cure, okay.

RHONDA:
And in 20 seconds, it would be cured.

DUBSIDE:
Really?

RHONDA:
Pull that clear plastic off and you're good to go. It's a great product.

DUBSIDE:
Do they still make that?

RHONDA:
I still have some kits and I do have it made.

DUBSIDE:
Do you recommend that or what's the trade-off between that and the full method?

RHONDA:
Well, if you're out and about and you're kayaking somewhere and you don't have a lot, you can't repair your boat when you're out kayak camping, right? You've got to have something. Most people carry duct tape or some form to cover it, but this will actually fill the hole in because once you put that liquid in, it expands on top of the hole and it closes it off.

DUBSIDE:
So what's the trade-off between that and the full method that we just talked about?

RHONDA:
The trade-off is that it's an easy repair kit to carry on trips with you versus, you don't want to do it when you're at home. You want to, when you're at home and you have the capabilities of doing the repair, you can repair it. People who do the kit repair, bring that to me to do a full repair.

DUBSIDE:
Oh, okay. So this is when you're out there kayaking, so you don't make it any worse. You do put this on there.

Then you come to you for the full treatment later on.

RHONDA:
So let me tell you a story.

DUBSIDE:
Tell me a story.

RHONDA:
So maybe five or six years ago, it could be longer and I'm not sure. Anyway, there were about 10 of us at Neah Bay and we were staying there and we were doing an instructor's training.

DUBSIDE:
All right.

RHONDA:
And one of the guys came flying in on the surf and hit another guy right in the bow. Hole this big, right? So everybody pulled their NSR kits out because it comes with a little piece of fiberglass.

DUBSIDE:
This is the kit we're talking about?

RHONDA:
This is the kit we're talking about. And you can do it wet. You can do it underwater.

DUBSIDE:
Really?

RHONDA:
Yeah. So we laid out the cloth. We got all of our resins out and we all just smeared it and cleaned it up.

DUBSIDE:
It was a big hole.

RHONDA:
Oh, it's a big hole. It was like this.

DUBSIDE:
So it took everybody's kit to get to cover?

RHONDA:
It took all of our kits. And we just laid it out and we put that resin on it and he was able to go kayaking again.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah, it worked?

RHONDA:
Of course. He didn't want to live with it like that. So he had to bring it home and get it fixed.

DUBSIDE:
All right. Yeah. So for my situation, that kit's not really gonna do me any good because I'm looking for the full repair anyway and I'm not out on the water.

Okay. That answers that question.

So you've been doing this repair stuff for many, many years, right?

RHONDA:
25 years, I think.

DUBSIDE:
Wow.

RHONDA:
Yeah. I love doing it. It just gives me such pleasure.

I kind of get in a Zen.

When I'm working on a boat, you know, you just start looking at it and trying to figure out how you're going to make it look right.

DUBSIDE:
Wow.

RHONDA:
Yeah. I stay really busy.

DUBSIDE:
All right, yeah. So if somebody coming in with a, say like they've got maybe a six-inch gash on the hull somewhere, what would that typically cost to get fixed?

RHONDA:
About $200.

DUBSIDE:
$200? Okay.

RHONDA:
Now, I also do keel strips.

DUBSIDE:
Keel strips, oh, tell me about that.

RHONDA:
So that's on the hull of the boat, it's the keel, which is in the center of the hull, and it comes up, puckers up just a little bit, and that's the place when people drag them in that gets scratched the most.

DUBSIDE:
It's the most likely spot for wear and tear.

RHONDA:
Exactly, and are right at the bow and the stern, they'll come in like a Deception Pass or something and hit a rock and always chip that area. So a keel strip is a two-inch piece of fiberglass cloth that I put gel coat on right down the center, and it gives it a little bit more protection.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah.

RHONDA:
Yeah.

DUBSIDE:
So doing it in fiberglass is different. There was like an adhesive strip that I think George and Barb were selling, like keel tape or something?

RHONDA:
Yes, that's a 3M product, and it's called KeelEazy.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah, that's right, KeelEazy.

RHONDA:
Yeah, and you can put that on there too.

DUBSIDE:
That sounds like a full fiberglass strip would be a bit more protection.

RHONDA:
Well, yes. I have my thoughts about the KeelEasy, okay, because I've had people bring them to me. When you're going around the edge of the bow and the stern, you've got those curves, and it doesn't like going around the curve, so you've got to cut it and lay it a certain way.

It doesn't lay completely flat. You've always got a little lip on the edge, and people always get sand in there, and I've taken those off before, which is very hard to do, and I think it's hard to do. You have to heat it up and then pull all this…

DUBSIDE:
Because it's a really strong adhesive.

RHONDA:
It's a very strong adhesive, yeah, but then you've got all this sand in there where it started to rub against the gel coat, and it's starting to abrade that. So I don't personally, you know, I had it for a while, and I used it for a while, but I'd soon put a gel coat kill strip on.

DUBSIDE:
A gel coat all the way down? Yeah, yeah, yeah. With the actual bonding from the epoxy, that's a much stronger hold.

RHONDA:
Well, it's a fiberglass, yeah, fiberglass and then the gel coat, yeah. And they last really, they do a good job of holding up on the boat, and they don't weigh that much. People say, well, I don't want to add weight to my boat.

Well, it's not really adding that much weight to your boat at all, unless you make it really thick.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah, so for a full keel, it's fiberglass keel on a keel strip on a kayak…?

RHONDA:
How much?

DUBSIDE:
How much?

RHONDA:
$245. Now, back in the day when I first started, I charged $90, and then I just kept bringing the price up because of the products, and everything was going up in cost. It takes two days to do one, so I charged $245.

Well, you want a keel strip?

DUBSIDE:
I'll think about it. Okay, I would make you a deal, Dubside. 

DUBSIDE:
All right, I appreciate that.

So are there other things that people get, like redoing a cockpit combing or hatch?

RHONDA:
Oh, yeah.

DUBSIDE:
Tell me about those.

RHONDA:
So a lot of times people will get in their kayaks, and once they try to get out, they grab the combing to lift themselves out, and that's the worst thing you could do. Don't grab the combing. Those come loose, and so when they do...

DUBSIDE:
In front of you, reaching up and pulling up, like the way you get off the spray skirt, you grab a little grab loop, and you can pull that out and up, but pulling up on the actual rim of the cockpit...

RHONDA:
Pulling your whole body up on the rim.

DUBSIDE:
You need to reach behind you and push up.

RHONDA:
Exactly, exactly.

DUBSIDE:
So if somebody reaches up and pulls really hard, what happens?

RHONDA:
Well, eventually it's going to come loose, and then they're going to bring it to me, and I'm going to have to fix it. So I use a 5800, which is an adhesive bond that you can put on the inside of that rim.

DUBSIDE:
When they make the kayak, that part's glued on originally, right?

RHONDA:
Yes, they use a product, an adhesive. So there's a 4800, and there's a 5800. I use the 5800.

It's a 72 or longer drying period, but it bonds really, really well. You get black or you get white. It doesn't matter because you're going to see it anyway.

And for hatches, the day hatches come off a lot. Don't know why, but for...

DUBSIDE:
The actual rim...

RHONDA:
The rim comes off if it's loose. So you have to pry that loose and try not to be too quick with it. You've got to be easy because part of it's really stuck to the fiberglass itself and the gel coat that they put it on.

So you've got to be easy about putting that on there, taking it off. And then once you get it off, you sand it down and put your 5800 on there, and your rim is clean, and you push it on there, and then you get some C-clamps and tighten that puppy down, and you leave it for a few days. Hopefully you won't have that problem.

DUBSIDE:
Do people get problems with, like, the skeg box? Are there problems you have to fix there? 

RHONDA:
All the time.

DUBSIDE:
Really?

RHONDA:
It's only the skegs because they'll leave it down when they're coming to shore, or they'll put it up, and when they're leaving, they push the boat against the rocks, and rocks get stuck inside the box. Then they try to use the handle to release the skeg and force it, and then that stainless steel cable kinks. And once it kinks, you cannot straighten it.

DUBSIDE:
Now, is that a fiberglass repair or different?

RHONDA:
No, that's not a fiberglass repair.

DUBSIDE:
Okay, but you handle that anyway.

RHONDA:
Right, so you have to take the whole stainless steel cable out and replace that. Some boats actually have the cable attached to the skeg.

DUBSIDE:
Permanently. 

RHONDA:
Yes, it's welded into the skeg, and you cannot, that's not an easy fix. You have to order it from the manufacturer, but those manufacturers are not in business anymore because that's an older model.

DUBSIDE:
So the skeg and the cable are all together?

RHONDA:
Are one piece, yes. So you have to order it from a place, and the best place I know, if I could say the name, is Top Kayaker. And they're in the East Coast, northeast coast, and they have everything.

He has everything. He's a wonderful guy. His name's Tom, and he can tell you everything about everything. It's great.

DUBSIDE:
From a repair perspective, what is the best skeg design? Because they've tried all different kinds of combinations of where you put the thing, and cables, and you know, like non-steel cables that you pull. 

RHONDA:
They have ropes, they have cables.

DUBSIDE:
So what would you say is the best design?

RHONDA:
Wow, that's a tough one.

DUBSIDE:
The answer could be none of them, because they never seem to...

RHONDA:
Well, I was going to say, I have a boat that I got from Shawna, and it doesn't even have a skeg.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah, okay, that could be the answer.

RHONDA:
But you've got to have good body English to work that boat. Yeah, so not just anybody. The skegs are great to have, you know, because they help keep you on track.

They're useful. As far as the best design, I really couldn't tell you. A skeg is a skeg.

I mean, you know, it's going to come down, or it's not going to come down. And when it does come down, it works great, you know. As long as you can reach the control and move it up and down, most people are happy with that.

I actually like the rope skeg better, because you don't have to worry about it kinking. If rocks get in there, you can take your knife and clean it out.

DUBSIDE:
Why isn't that more universal then?

RHONDA:
It's just an older way of doing things. The way they have it set up is there's a bungee cord. That goes in the back on the top of the boat that attaches to the rope so that it gives it that spring, so when you're moving it, it comes up and it comes down by that bungee that's in there.

If that starts to wear out, you've got to replace it. It's not the easiest thing to do, but it is doable.

DUBSIDE:
But a bungee is not that expensive to repair as opposed to a, yeah, all right.

RHONDA:
Yeah, I hate the cables that kink. I've done it to my boats many times because I forget. One year, we were going to...

DUBSIDE:
So give me the basic rundown on how to kink a cable or how not to kink a cable. What's a typical thing to do?

RHONDA:
Getting rocks up in it and trying to force it down.

DUBSIDE:
Okay, so I'm paddling along and my skeg needs to come down, and I pull the little lever, and I don't feel it coming down, so I pull it as hard as I possibly can. Is that…

RHONDA:
That kinks it.

DUBSIDE:
That kinks it, okay.

RHONDA:
So what a lot of people do on their, so we're going to call this the skeg, okay, and this is coming down, right?

DUBSIDE:
Yeah.

RHONDA:
A lot of people drill a little hole right here.

DUBSIDE:
Oh, yeah. And they put a string on it.

RHONDA:
So you say, if my skeg doesn't come down, I say, “Hey Dubside, come over here and pull on my string.”

DUBSIDE:
So when I pull on the lever and nothing's happening, then I say, “Hey, excuse me, can you go pull it down?”

RHONDA:
Yeah, go pull my string.

DUBSIDE:
Pull it from the skeg itself is what needs to clear that, not, you know, wailing on the knob. RHONDA:
Exactly.

DUBSIDE:
Now, if it's down and it won't come up, does that happen?

RHONDA:
That means there's already a kink in it somewhere.

DUBSIDE:
Oh, it's too late then?

RHONDA:
I'm not really sure how this happens, but what happens is when you're going out into the ocean and you come back and you don't rinse your boat off, it builds up salt deposits inside the boat.

DUBSIDE:
Inside there, okay.

RHONDA:
I've actually seen boats where you look inside and it's all white and you have all this salt content in it. So I can only imagine what the tubing is going to look like where that stainless steel cable is going. It will get hard and you got to pull and tug.

So I recommend when you come back, you hose out your boat, clean it up good, take that hose and turn the boat upside down and point the hose right into the skeg hole and just flush it. Just get all that salt water out of there.

DUBSIDE:
So this is something that people that paddle the Great Lakes don't have to worry about.

RHONDA:
Oh, forever, yes. That would be awesome, but we have salt water, so we have to worry about it.

DUBSIDE:
So every time you bring the kayak in, you do that?

RHONDA:
If I'm in salt water, I do, yeah. I mean, it's like, do you wear a dry suit?

DUBSIDE:
Not anymore.

RHONDA:
Okay, what do you wear?

DUBSIDE:
Wetsuit.

RHONDA:
Okay, so when you're out in the salt water and you come back and it's dry, do you see white?

DUBSIDE:
Oh, yeah.

RHONDA:
That's salt. Okay, do you rinse that?

DUBSIDE:
Well, where I'm at at the moment, it's fresh water, so I don't know.

RHONDA:
But when you're in the salt.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah, when I'm thinking about it, yeah, I do. And I mean, somebody observed to me a long time ago that salt water doesn't dry off nearly as fast as if you rinse the salt off. It'll dry faster if it's fresh water on there, which makes sense, because the salt just leaves that sliminess on it.

RHONDA:
Well, it's just the saltiness and everything turns white, you know, but just rinse that off, because salt water can damage things. Yeah, you know, so I rinse off my dry suit, my boots, everything.

DUBSIDE:
Whenever I'm in salt water, my watch especially, because the metal on there will corrode if you leave the salt hanging out on there.

RHONDA:
That's true, yeah, you're right.

DUBSIDE:
But the neoprene, you know, I guess I try to rinse it, but, you know, I'm not submerging it repeatedly and getting a good…

RHONDA:
No, but you take a hose to it.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah, if there's a hose nearby, you know, if you're rushing back and forth or teaching a class.

RHONDA:
That's true, that's true.

DUBSIDE:
Things get, right, at the end of a weekend of kayaking, a weekend event, then I'll rinse everything off.

RHONDA:
There you go. Yeah, you do. So you do, yeah.

The hard part is when you go kayak camping and you're gone for a week.

DUBSIDE:
Like extended kayak camping.

RHONDA:
Yeah, I mean, you don't want to use your fresh drinking water to rinse your stuff off, so you just end up, you know, doing the best you can. You hang it up, you know, the next morning you go to get into it. Of course, it's wet, it's cold.

I hate getting into those wet suits like that. I'd rather wear a dry suit.

DUBSIDE:
It's only uncomfortable for about 30 seconds or less.

RHONDA:
Oh, it's too long for me.

DUBSIDE:
So, anything else you'd like to impart to us about?

RHONDA:
Well, I would like to say one thing. Let's go back to the outside of the boat, because we never did finish that.

DUBSIDE:
Oh, okay.

RHONDA:
We got it taped off, we got it sanded, we got the acetone on it.

DUBSIDE:
Yes, very important.

RHONDA:
Then you want to use your gel coat with polyester in it, and so you pour enough to do the job.

DUBSIDE:
Is that like you got to mix something with the catalyst, or that's just one thing you put on there and it'll dry?

RHONDA:
You got to put catalyst in there, but you also, if it doesn't, most gel coats come with a wax in it, and what the wax does is it lifts itself to the surface and suffocates the oxygen from getting into it, and that's what helps it harden as well.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
You can't just use wax, you have to use wax and the catalyst, okay. So, you pour enough to fill your area. If it's a three by three inch area, you just take a couple of tablespoons, that's all you need.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
Put your catalyst in it, and maybe four or five drops of catalyst, a couple of drops, same thing with the wax, stir it up really, really well.

DUBSIDE:
So, you've got a separate container of wax?

RHONDA:
I pour that into that.

DUBSIDE:
How do you measure that out, just drops?

RHONDA:
Yeah, it's just a little bit, about the same as you would with the catalyst.

DUBSIDE:
Right.

RHONDA:
Yeah, you don't need a lot of it.

DUBSIDE:
Are there some gel coats that you can buy that have the wax already in there?

RHONDA:
Yes, some do.

DUBSIDE:
Okay, so there are two different versions of that.

RHONDA:
Some manufacturers do it, and some don't. I specifically ask for it not to be in my black.

DUBSIDE:
Okay, why is that?

RHONDA:
Because I use it for keel strips a lot, and I like not having the wax in it when I do the first coat, but I will add the wax for the second coat.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
I want it to be a little tacky, so when I put that second coat on, it adheres to it. But let's go back to this real quick. So, once you get the wax and the catalyst into your white, we'll call it white, mix it up really, really well, and then you want to get a brush.

DUBSIDE:
It's like stirring it in a Dixie cup or something.

RHONDA:
Exactly, with the tongue depressors, what I use, or popsicle sticks. Yeah. And then you just want to take your brush, and I just use really thin or inexpensive brushes.

You can get them at Home Depot or a hardware store. They're like, I don't know, 15, 20 cents.

DUBSIDE:
Like round, like an artist brush, or wide, like a small?

RHONDA:
No, like a paintbrush.

DUBSIDE:
Like the smallest, not too wide.

RHONDA:
They're paintbrushes. They're one inch, one and a half inch, two inches.

DUBSIDE:
And this is going to have to be a disposable one, because you're not going to reuse it?

RHONDA:
Oh, yeah, you're going to throw it away.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
So, you just take it, and you smooth it on there until you fill up that hole.

DUBSIDE:
All right.

RHONDA:
Let it sit. Leave it alone. Walk away from it.

Throw all this stuff away, and clean up your mess.

DUBSIDE:
All right.

RHONDA:
The next day, you go back, and it's hard.

DUBSIDE:
All right.

RHONDA:
All right.

DUBSIDE:
So, from starting with like a real hole there, we fill that in with the fiberglass. So, it's fairly flat and smooth.

RHONDA:
You haven't filled it in with the fiberglass. No. You filled it in with the gel coat, because on the inside, you protected it, because you said you see the white, which is a fiberglass.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
All right. So, you've protected the inside.

DUBSIDE:
Inside. Okay, yeah.

RHONDA:
Now, we're going to do the outside.

DUBSIDE:
Okay, so there could still be some deep, slightly deeper than the thickness of a piece of paper on the outside that we're filling in with the gel coat.

RHONDA:
Right.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
Because your gel coat is missing.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah.

RHONDA:
Okay.

DUBSIDE:
I thought of gel coat as like this thin little layer on top of all the fiberglass, but okay.

RHONDA:
No. I mean, there are some manufacturers that use it like paper, paper thin, like rice paper thin.

DUBSIDE:
And they're just trying to cut costs or what?

RHONDA:
It's the weight.

DUBSIDE:
Oh, okay.

RHONDA:
And then some, there's a particular boat that I absolutely love, because they use a lot of gel coat, and I can really grind down into it, and fill it, and get it fixed. Some are so paper thin, you can look at it wrong, and you're sanding back down to the gel coat, I mean to the fiberglass. So anyway, we poured our gel coat, okay, and we just let it harden.

Then you come back the next day, and you want to get wet sandpaper.

DUBSIDE:
Okay, just sandpaper that you wet, you put water on.

RHONDA:
You use water on it, okay. And you're going to, I start with a 400, then I go to an 800, and then I go to a 2000.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
To finish it off, okay. And then you just polish it up, and you're done. Wet sandpaper is great, because you use water, you keep water on it all the time, and you sand it.

And you don't have to rub hard with that. You just, it's a light rub, and it really will cut through that.

DUBSIDE:
All right.

RHONDA:
As long as you didn't add too much gel coat.

DUBSIDE:
Okay, uh-huh.

RHONDA:
Now if you use too much gel coat, you've got to cut it down to the boat area.

DUBSIDE:
So you use more of the coarse sandpaper to get that down. To get back down.

RHONDA:
But you can always call me, and I'll walk you through it down the side.

DUBSIDE:
All right, all right. So with the two, you said the 2000 grit stuff, right? That's really just like polishing it, so you get that nice smooth finish.

RHONDA:
Yep.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah.

RHONDA:
And then you can wax, and it'll just shine like a new diamond.

DUBSIDE:
Oh, the wax then makes it shine. Okay, okay. Yeah.

RHONDA:
You think you can do it now?

DUBSIDE:
I'll probably be giving you a call. Well, with my schedule, like from here, I go back home for like two or three weeks, then I'm in Greenland. In those two or three weeks, I don't imagine that I'll have the time to get together the acetone, and the gel coat, and the fiberglass, and the brushes.

RHONDA:
I’ll send you a grocery list. 

DUBSIDE:
Yeah, all right. That could work.

RHONDA:
And other people do it other ways. I'm not saying my way is the only way. It's not. There are a lot of different ways to do it.

DUBSIDE:
Like what's the difference?

RHONDA:
Well, there are people on YouTube you can go and look, and they do things a little bit differently, but they might use a different type. They may use epoxy. Now, epoxy is different than a gel coat. Remember that, okay? Most kayaks are made from gel coat. The outside is a gel coat. Some people like to put an epoxy on it because it is stronger and harder.

DUBSIDE:
My understanding is that one of the basic shortcomings of epoxy is it won't handle ultraviolet.

RHONDA:
That's good to know, yeah.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah, and that's the purpose of gel coat is to cover the fiberglass so the sun won't degrade the fiberglass.

RHONDA:
You can put epoxy on gel coat. So let's say you bring me your gel coat boat, and we put epoxy all over it, right?

DUBSIDE:
Yeah.

RHONDA:
And you're good to go. You're gone. You come back, and there's a little tiny crack in the middle of wherever you did that repair, and I sand it down thinking it's gel coat.

I try to put gel coat on it. It won't adhere to it because it's epoxy. So I have to take the whole thing off that you did.

DUBSIDE:
So you have to sand all that epoxy off?

RHONDA:
If I want to just use gel coat. So for that purpose, I have small little kits of epoxy that I will use, but I personally don't like working with it. It's just it runs too much for me.

Gel coat, once you get it on, you get your catalyst, and you wax it, and you go to put it on. It sets up really nice, and you can still move it around, but it doesn't run like the epoxy does for me, and maybe it's my style. I don't know, but gel coat's my thing.

DUBSIDE:
So if you put all this epoxy on, it starts running, dripping down the kayak. What do you do there?

RHONDA:
Get a rag and clean it up.

You can put tape down there, and curl the tape up to catch it. You can tape it off with paper, and so it doesn't get on the boat, and I just, I personally don't like it. It's a great product, but it's not good for me.

DUBSIDE:
Here's a question. How long can I get away with Gorilla Tape?

Indefinitely?

RHONDA:
How rough are you?
 
DUBSIDE:
Put a new piece on?

Well, I mean, if I scrape it right there, that's a problem. Oh, that is a problem. But if I don't, if I just have the Gorilla Tape on there...

RHONDA:
Some people have had it on for three or four months, you know, before they bring me their boats.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah.

RHONDA:
You want to eventually get it taken care of.

DUBSIDE:
All right, so three or four years is probably not recommended.

RHONDA:
No.

DUBSIDE:
I'm looking for the lazy way out of this problem.

RHONDA:
I can tell. Oh my goodness. It'd be cheaper for you to pay for me to go see you. You see how I threw that in?

DUBSIDE:
All right.  I'll keep that in mind.

RHONDA:
But then I'd have to bring all my product. No, I'd just buy it out there, set you up, and you'd be all set to go.

DUBSIDE:
Well, that's been very enlightening.

RHONDA:
Yeah.

DUBSIDE:
Yes, and if anybody listening to the podcast uses this to patch up their kayak, and it goes wrong, it's not our fault.

RHONDA:
No, just call me.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah, call Rhonda.

RHONDA:
Yeah, so my business is Kayakers Go Coastal.

DUBSIDE:
Kayakers Go Coastal. Coastal, not postal.

RHONDA:
No.

DUBSIDE:
And that's the name of the website?

RHONDA:
Uh-huh. Kayakers Go Coastal.

DUBSIDE:
Okay.

RHONDA:
Yeah, you can get it anywhere in the country.

DUBSIDE:
Yeah. All right.

RHONDA:
I'll give you my number.

DUBSIDE:
Very good. Well, thank you for being on the Dubcast with Dubside.

RHONDA:
You're welcome. Thank you for letting me do this. It's so good to see you again.

Yeah. Little did I know I'd be doing this.

DUBSIDE:
Very informative.