Chuck Smith: Skin-on-Frame Kayaks, Great Lakes Surf, and Paddle Wisdom

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Dubside interviews Chuck Smith at the Traditional Paddlers’ Gathering in Minnesota for a lively conversation about building skin-on-frame kayaks, shaping paddles, teaching kayaking skills, and paddling the often wild waters of the Great Lakes. Chuck offers down-to-earth advice for anyone curious about building their own kayak, from materials and tools to the real costs and time involved, while also sharing hard-earned thoughts on paddle design, surf, safety, and the unique weather of places like Lake Superior.

Transcript

[DUBSIDE]
Welcome to The Dubcast, with Dubside. This is a special guest edition of The Dubcast. We'll hear from Chuck Smith, a kayak builder and instructor from the Midwest area of the U.S. I talked to him about building skin-on-frame kayaks, some of the costs involved, cost of wood, etc. I got a good rescue story on the water, VHF radio thing going on. We talked about teaching the skills of kayaking, some forward stroke explanations, and we talked about the unique weather on Lake Superior and surfing on the Great Lakes. This runs about 40 minutes.

Your name is Chuck Smith.

[CHUCK]
I am Chuck Smith. 

[DUBSIDE] 
Yes, you are.

We are at the Traditional Paddlers' Gathering on a Sunday as things are wrapping up on September 7, 2025. Tell me about yourself. You've been coming to some of these events for a while, right?

[CHUCK]
Fifteen years, give or take. I started off at Training Camp and then was invited here. I've been coming here regularly for probably 10 years.

[DUBSIDE]
Wow, all right, very good. So you live in the Midwest area here?

[CHUCK]
Yeah, Detroit area.

[DUBSIDE]
Detroit, all right, cool. How long have you been kayaking?

[CHUCK]
Since about 1999, give or take.

[DUBSIDE]
All right, very good.

[CHUCK]
And in a skin-on-frame since about 2001.

[DUBSIDE]
What got you into the traditional stuff?

[CHUCK]
Phone call. I got a phone call from my dad saying, “Hey, you want to build skin-on-frame kayaks with me and our friend Mike?"

 And I said, “Sure, what's a skin-on-frame kayak?”

And we ended up building the first three skin-on-frame kayaks in southeast Michigan, and then things kind of snowballed.

[DUBSIDE]
All right, yeah. So now you do kayak building workshops?

[CHUCK]
All of the above. I've run half a dozen group builds with about 10 people building skin-on-frames, and I've helped about a dozen other people run large group builds of about a dozen kayaks and build paddles and gear and maintain paddles and gear and travel to events. And we might build a kayak, we might build paddles or harpoons or repair dry suit gaskets or whatever else we can dream of.

[DUBSIDE]
Wow. What can you tell me about building a skin-on-frame kayak that maybe somebody who wants to do that would first need to know?

[CHUCK]
The only hard part is starting and having a little determination to do it. My star student, favorite student ever, didn't know how to use a ruler when she started. And she ended up with a very nice, very functional kayak she's still using 15 years later.

So you just have to decide to do it.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay, that's good to know. How you learn how to build skin-on-frames, does that come from any specific, like some of the books that are out there?

[CHUCK]
Yeah, what precipitated it is our friend bought the building skin-on-frame kayaks by Christopher Cunningham.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay, yeah.

[CHUCK]
And if you haven't built anything before, that's a wonderful guide. And we'd never built anything like it, and we had the Cunningham book and the Morris book. We'd never even seen a skin-on-frame kayak, so some evenings we'd get together for 3 hours and just argue, it means this, it means that.

[DUBSIDE]
Just looking at the pictures.

[CHUCK]
Yeah, the pictures or reading the text.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah.

[CHUCK]
And most of what we learned is every point we were arguing was valid, we just had to pick one and do it.

[DUBSIDE]
All right, yeah, wow. So what would you say is the hardest part of building a skin-on-frame kayak?

[CHUCK]
Defining what you want. And what I tell everybody is put some thought into why you want this kayak and what you want it to do and write down 3 or 4 sentences on a piece of paper and tape that to your sawhorse so you keep that in mind.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay.

[CHUCK]
Especially if you're building with a group because they start looking like everybody else's kayak, and that's not what you want for your kayak. So write it down.

[DUBSIDE]
So that seems to be more of an obstacle than like, say, bending ribs? 

[CHUCK] 
Yes.
[DUBSIDE]
Really?

[CHUCK]
Yes. Bending ribs just takes persistence. If you keep at it, you'll get there.

Bending ribs and bending the combing is definitely the hardest technical part, but there's nothing hard about it. It's harder to think about it than to do it.

And there's plenty of help available online or there's builders everywhere, and we're not shy. Track us down. We'll help.

[DUBSIDE]
All right. So to keep somebody from having to fast-forward through my whole interview here, tell me right now, how would somebody get in touch with you if they wanted advice on things?

[CHUCK]
Um, I don't have a good answer. I had a kayak paddle-building company that is now defunct. The email's now defunct.

[DUBSIDE]
Oh, all right.

[CHUCK]
Cbriansmith@gmail.com.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay.

[CHUCK]
And I'm sure you can put that in somewhere.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah, yeah, I'll link to that. Okay. 

[CHUCK] 
But send me an email.

[DUBSIDE] 
Yeah. So how is it that this was a kayak-building or canoe-building? You said it went defunct? What happened there?

[CHUCK]
I was tariffed out of business. I can no longer get raw material.

[DUBSIDE]
All right, right up to date here with the latest.

[CHUCK]
Yeah. But I no longer have reliable sources of raw material.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah, I was gonna ask you about the wood and sources and the prices of wood and stuff. So that's a big hindrance right now just to get...

[CHUCK]
Um, for building a kayak, it's easier because there's a wide variety of wood species that can be used, no problem. Paddles, you kind of want something that's strong and light, and that starts narrowing our choices. 

And most of the quality choices come from Canada. What's available in the States is very expensive.

[DUBSIDE]
All right. So... Are there...

I'm sure there are paddle-makers in Canada or in other places that have a different situation. I've got plenty of people listening to my podcast in Scandinavia and other parts of the world. So...

Specific to the U.S., that's an issue, but not universally.

[CHUCK]
But that's the situation I'm in. But Western Red Cedar or similar wood makes beautiful paddles. And don't put a lot of thought in it. Just make a paddle. Grab a piece of wood and make the paddle.

That's not a big investment in time or money. And the first one's a learning tool. You're going to learn how to make it and what you want in the next paddle. So just do it.

[DUBSIDE]
All right. So for a kayak, if it's the...

Getting the specific kind of wood isn't quite as critical as in making a paddle. A kayak... You need to set aside, like, how much money if you're going to build your own skin-on frame.

[CHUCK]
I haven't made one since the pandemic, but a good working number is $300 to $400. Oh. It can be done for considerably less or considerably more.

But we use top-of-the-line everything, and we're in for a comfortable $300.

[DUBSIDE]
Now, that would assume that the right tools are available. Is that correct?

[CHUCK]
The right tools are easily available, and you don't need much.

[DUBSIDE]
All right. But that's going to be in addition to the $300?

So what are the basic tools? What do we need?

[CHUCK]
Basic tools, you'll need a saw. I prefer Japanese pull saws, but use what you've got. It's fine. It just has to cut wood. A low-angle block plane. You can buy a decent one new for $30, $40. You can buy them at a thrift store for $5. And I can and have built kayaks with those two tools plus a drill.

If I had to add one on to the really nice-to-have, it's a mortising machine or a router. And again, those are kind of expensive to buy new, but they're quite cheap used.

[DUBSIDE]
What's that used for when you're making a kayak?

[CHUCK]
The mortises for the ribs. A mortise machine drills square holes.

[DUBSIDE]
That's the hole in the rib that you stick the other piece into.

[CHUCK]
Right.

[DUBSIDE]
It's a mortise, yeah.

[CHUCK]
And it's totally possible to do that with a drill and just drill three or four holes and then a chisel to shave it square, and it's fine.

[DUBSIDE]
That takes a bit more time and trouble to do than if you have a machine.

[CHUCK]
Maybe an hour for the whole build. Not that big a deal.

All right. First-time builder called 100 hours to build a skin-on-frame kayak.

[DUBSIDE]
All right.

[CHUCK]
And most of that time is spent thinking. It'll be about 30 or 40 hours of actual doing. The second kayak will take probably 30 or 40 hours, and I can build one in about 20.

[DUBSIDE]
Mm-hmm.

[CHUCK]
So learning happens.

[DUBSIDE]
Going back to tools, if you're going to be bending ribs, you need some sort of steam box kind of a thing, right?

[CHUCK]
Some steam box kind of thing. I use a piece of aluminum downspout with some insulation wrapped around it, which sometimes is a blanket. And the steam's got to come from somewhere. A wallpaper steamer works great. A pressure cooker works great.

Just a piece of hose coming into the box, and no big deal. There are lots of plans online, and all of them work.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay. How much space do you need physically to do this, and can you do it outside, and how does that work?

[CHUCK]
Totally doable outside. It's nice to work somewhere where it's not raining. Temperature doesn't matter much.

Inside, you'll need a space somewhat bigger than the kayak you're building. I've built 16-foot-long kayaks in 18-foot-long rooms. It was a little tight and inconvenient, but it was warm, and it was January in Michigan. It worked fine.

[DUBSIDE]
I would imagine you have to plan ahead to make sure you can get it out of the room once you finish building it.

[CHUCK]
Yes. Plan ahead, building a boat in the basement, and then what?

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah. All right. So for skinning the boat, what do you prefer?

[CHUCK]
My favorite is 12-ounce ballistic nylon.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay.

[CHUCK]
It's very easy to work. It's incredibly tough and robust and fairly readily available.
The finish I use on it is typically polyurethane varnish, and the most popular right now is Minwax exterior spar varnish. It comes from any big-box hardware store.

And the single most expensive part of the kayak is the skin.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay. I was going to ask, so what would you be paying? And you need what, like how long a length?

It's wide enough for a kayak, and how does that work?

[CHUCK]
Yeah, wide enough for the kayak, just measure around the kayak, it'll come out 54 inches, something like that, by the length, which is going to be 17 feet, give or take.

[DUBSIDE]
But a roll of it is generally what width?

[CHUCK]
It varies from 54 all the way up to 102 inches.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay.

[CHUCK]
And Corey, I don't think, is selling anymore, and I've got to look and rustle up another supplier.

[DUBSIDE]
All right. Corey Friedman, the late Corey Friedman from Anacortes, Washington. I lived on Corey's property for a year way back when.

[CHUCK]
Neat.

[DUBSIDE]
Quite a place.

[CHUCK]
Neat.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah, we all miss Corey now. All right. And so you said the skin is going to be the most expensive thing you're going to be buying.

[CHUCK]
And there's options. Cotton canvas works fine, and that's quite inexpensive. And paint.

It doesn't matter what kind of paint. Latex works fine, oil base, whatever mis-tint they've got at the store for five bucks works fine.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah. That seems to be the reason why you get some weird colors in Greenland, because they're just grabbing any kind of paint that's available. So the technique there, you paint, and then you sand smooth, and you paint, and you sand smooth, and you repeat.

[CHUCK] 
No sanding. 

[DUBSIDE] 
No sanding. Okay, you just paint, and that's it?

[CHUCK] 
Yeah. 
[DUBSIDE] 
Okay. Well, my understanding is that the painting and sanding and painting and sanding gets you a smoother finish, which if you're really fanatical about racing, you need every bit of speed you can, and that's why they would do that.

Does that sound right?

[CHUCK]
When people pass me consistently, I'll start considering it. Okay. Mine have never been sanded, and I'm usually at the front of the pack.

[DUBSIDE]
All right. So one coat of paint or extra?

[CHUCK]
Paint, usually three or four. Varnish, maybe more.

All right. And the first coat usually thinned maybe 10% to help penetrate the fabric. And after that, just put it on.

Try not to be too sloppy, but it doesn't matter. It's fine.

[DUBSIDE]
All right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

So how many kayaks have you built for yourself personally?

[CHUCK]
Personally, for me, about six. For my partner, we'll add in another two.

For other people, we'll add in another five. Group builds, we'll call it about 100, 150. And for builds I've helped with, we'll call it about 400.
`
There's a lot of skin on frames out there.

[DUBSIDE]
Uh-huh. What would be something that would mess up your skin on frame in the build process that you'd want to avoid?

[CHUCK]
What I see most commonly is people looking at somebody else's kayak and saying, Hey, that looks neat. I'll incorporate it in mine.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah.

[CHUCK]
Because they didn't write down what they wanted.

[DUBSIDE]
You would say, That looks neat. That looks interesting to me, not like untidy, not like a version of tidy neat, but a version of just that that's cool. I want that.

[CHUCK] 
Yeah, design.

The neat thing with a kayak is almost no matter how you put it together, it's going to work fine.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay.

[CHUCK]
Our first kayaks were acts of craftsmanship. They were nice. And then we skinned it and paddled it for a few years and figured out that all the time we spent in that made no difference at all.

We could have built it in half the time and been just as happy. 
[DUBSIDE]
I’ve seen some builders take a lot of time lining it up so it's straight and not twisted when you tried sewing it and keeping that straight line of the keel kind of thing and just making sure all the lines look right.

Because when you start doing things, it can twist a little bit the wrong way and then you get a kayak that tracks funny?

[CHUCK]
That's absolutely true. And do a preliminary hack job of truing everything up before skinning it and realize when you stretch the skin, everything's going to move and you're going to have to come back and adjust it.

And then go to your friendly local kayak shop and sight down the keel of a $6,000 kayak. There's not one of them that's straight.

So you'll feel a little better about the one you built. Close enough is fine.

[DUBSIDE] 
Good to know.

Uh-huh. So moving on to, say, other pursuits on the water. The other day we were talking about different rescue situations in VHF radios and you seem to be a wealth of knowledge about such things.

Any good stories about that kind of thing?

[CHUCK]
Lots of stories, very few of them good.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay. Well, let's hear something.

[CHUCK]
The saddest one I ever heard was two years ago.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay.

[CHUCK]
And we were out on a sailboat swimming and beautiful day, hardly any wind, no waves. We're watching a chopper fly search pattern, which is continually expanding. And that's not a good thing. It means they're not finding what they're searching for. Yeah.

And we start hearing the radio calls and a boat with 13 people went out. They made it all the way back to the dock before they figured out they came back with 12 people. They told...

[DUBSIDE]
Like a group leader's cardinal sin there.

[CHUCK]
Count the people in, count the people out.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah.

[CHUCK]
And then they gave the Coast Guard bad information. We're swimming here, this is where the person went in. They didn't know that, but that's what they told the Coast Guard.

Yeah. So the Coast Guard's searching here when they should have been searching a much broader area. And searches rarely have happy endings.

So pay attention.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah.

[CHUCK]
Know how many people you've got. Have some idea where you actually are on the water.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah.

[CHUCK]
And if you think you need help, call the cavalry. They'd much rather be called off, say, hey, we're good, than try to explain why you waited a half hour before you called.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah. Yeah. Your occupation involves...

[CHUCK]
I build custom boat covers. 

[DUBSIDE] 
You build custom boat covers. Okay.

[CHUCK] 
Also a certified sailboat instructor. And my whole life I've spent on the water from a long line of water people in my family. My great-great-grandfather was a ship captain in the 1880s, as was his wife. She was one of about six on the Great Lakes.

[DUBSIDE]
On the Great Lakes. Yeah.

[CHUCK]
Six women captains. But it goes way back. It's a genetic defect.

[DUBSIDE]
If you say so. So you've taught kayaking just regular skills on the water? 

[CHUCK] 
Sure.

[DUBSIDE] 
Okay. Tell us about that.

[CHUCK]
The most fun part for me, no matter what I'm doing, is watching the light bulbs go on in the student's head: “Hey, I can actually can do this!” And the last five or six years or so, I've been more on land skills than water skills.

But it's the same thing. I enjoy watching people say, “hey, I really can do this.” And people tend to come to these events thinking, maybe someday I'll be able to roll.

And picking up a roll at first event, it happens. It's not that common. But people generally leave thinking, “Hey, I really can do this.”

It'll take some practice, but I'll get there. And then they figure out the first roll, and they figure out it really is easy. It's like riding a bike.

You're going to skin up your shins a few times, and then you're not going to understand why it was difficult. The light bulb goes on, and you've got it. And it's a whole host of skills that I'll never know everything.

That's why it's fun. There's always more to learn. But whatever I've learned, I can share with other people and bring them along, too, and watch the big silly smiles form on their face.

That's what's fun for me.

[DUBSIDE]
Would you describe teaching... It's a question. Would you describe teaching the forward stroke with a Greenland paddle as significantly different with a Euro paddle, or how do you see that?

[CHUCK]
I would describe teaching a proper forward stroke with a Greenland paddle as significantly different.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay.

[CHUCK]
Greenland paddle generally wants to be a little more horizontal in the water.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay.

[CHUCK]
Generally wants a longer stroke, going a little farther forward, keep it in the water a little farther back, and the biggest difference is a European-style paddle, you can kind of jam on the water and pull on it, and it'll work fine. If you do that with a Greenland paddle, it will not work fine, and it will say, I'm very unhappy as it flutters through the water. There's the magic cant, the angle the paddle wants to slice through the water.

The top of the paddle wants to be forward of the bottom of the paddle by some magic unknown number, every paddle's a little different.

[DUBSIDE]
When you say the top, you mean the top edge of the paddle, not that the blade that's high in the air, but just that the whole paddle itself leaning forward.

[CHUCK]
The top edge of the paddle wants to be a little bit forward of the bottom edge of the paddle.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah.

[CHUCK]
And it will feel very weird and very foreign, and it'll feel like it's trying to tip you over a little bit, but it gives much more power, much more control, much more endurance. And any paddle, if you hold it as loosely as you can and put a moderate amount of force in it, will pretty much teach you how to use it. If it's fluttering, you've probably got the wrong angle, so play with it, and just let it talk to you.

Realize there's subtleties here. And I've had this discussion and been laughed at by some of the people who own the biggest paddle sports companies in the world, and then we'll paddle 20 or 30 miles, and I revisit the conversation, say, now are you willing to listen? I'm 150 pounds soaking wet.

I was never anywhere except the front of the pack, so maybe I'm not out muscling everybody. Maybe there's something to what I'm saying, so can we listen now? Can we try this now?

And it's fun. 

[DUBSIDE] 
What would your recommendation be for the length of a paddle to start with for somebody?

[CHUCK]
Recommendation is always try as many as you possibly can. If we're looking for a crude rule of thumb, buy one that's about as tall as you can reach with your fingertips or your wingspan plus a cubit, and just use it.

[DUBSIDE]
So wingspan is your fingers outside the side stretch as far as you can, that distance plus the distance from your elbow to your fingertips. As a starting guideline.

[CHUCK]
It's a starting guideline, and I've made paddles commercially, and one thing I've never done and won't do is put the dimensions of the paddle on a paddle.

[DUBSIDE]
Oh yeah?

[CHUCK]
Because we end up sitting around a campfire arguing over one inch of length or a quarter inch of width, and it doesn't matter. It's close enough. And what works for me is different than what's going to work for you because I have a different body with different musculature and different injuries through the years.

I'm going to take a different paddle. If I'm buying a commercial paddle, they come essentially small, medium, and large. It works, but it's like buying shoes in small, medium, or large.

It works, but it's never going to be right. If you want it right, find out what the right length is or build your own. It's the cost of a 2x4.

Use it for a while, change something, build another paddle, try it again. We're only talking about the cost of a 2x4 and maybe four hours of very lazy work. Not a big deal.

[DUBSIDE]
I was about to ask you the trade-offs between carbon fiber, and wood, but I think you just explained that quite well.

[CHUCK]
That's part of it. My elbows have been broken up through the years because I'm kind of hard on my body. A wood paddle damps out a lot of little micro-vibrations.

[DUBSIDE]
The flex.

[CHUCK]
And the carbon doesn't. It transmits it into my body. And I love a carbon paddle for about 10-20 minutes.

And then my elbows start saying, I'm not happy. And I'm guessing that it's the vibrations. But it can be the same shape paddle. And the carbon paddle is not good to me. The wood paddle is..

[DUBSIDE]
All right. I hadn't thought of it that way. I like that little flex. It's like you put a little bit in the bank with each stroke, and then you get the deposit back with the next stroke coming.

And the carbon fibers, they just don't do that. It's just stiff.

[CHUCK]
Exactly. And there are a couple boutique makers who have the right flex in a carbon paddle. I'm not aware of any of the big makers that do.

Partly due to durability. If you break a $500 paddle, you're going to be an unhappy customer. If it's going to bend properly, breaking it is a possibility.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah. Well, the fine line between strength and lightness and flexibility is hard to dial in.

I've got a few broken carbon fiber paddles myself over the years.

[CHUCK]
Yeah. It does not make for happiness.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah. All right. So what about the weight of the paddle? How light can you get a wooden paddle in practical terms?

[CHUCK]
In practical terms, I can be within a couple ounces of a carbon paddle.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay.

[CHUCK]
I don't like particularly lightweight paddles.

[DUBSIDE]
So it's possible to make a paddle that's too light.

[CHUCK]
Yes.

[DUBSIDE]
Mm-hmm.

[CHUCK]
Um, and again, this is things we argue about while consuming beer around a fire. But I don't, a particularly light paddle is grabbed by every wind and I've got to fight it up there. A paddle that might weigh two or three ounces more is much less affected by that.

Over the course of 20 or 30 miles. Yeah, that small weight difference matters, but I can't tell the difference.

[DUBSIDE]
Right. I've also heard people talk about just the swing weight, just having some momentum to move the paddle. If it's just a little featherweight thing in your hand, you just don't get that, that feel of a little bit of heft there.

[CHUCK]
Absolutely. And I don't have the technical words to explain that. I don't have the vocabulary, but I've got the feel and absolutely right.

[DUBSIDE]
Well, it's very interesting when you say you, you don't, do not put the numbers on a paddle that you make of how exactly, how long it is and how much it weighs and that sort of thing. And I can see definitely the differences with other people's thought process or like the manufacturers, they do put it right there on the paddle and you can compare and I, I got a 220 centimeter and I'm going up to 230 centimeters. And it reminds me that all this stuff was made with minimal amount of even arithmetic.

It's all just how you, how it feels and your body measurements and stuff with no tape measure or anything. No, certainly no algebra or calculus. And people nowadays have analyzed it with all those tools, but it hasn't really made any huge drastic improvements in what we have.

[CHUCK]
Exactly. And did somebody like a shorter paddle because they broke their arm and maybe they didn't, they couldn't swing a longer paddle? Yeah, maybe.

And 300 years later, we're saying that's the way it should be.

[DUBSIDE]
So yeah, the Inuits did it all without that kind of technical analysis, but still came out with…

[CHUCK]
Well, they didn't need it. They use this every day and I suspect they'd laugh at us diving into all this minutia. Just build the thing and use it. If you don't like it, change it or build another one. 

And what makes me laugh with all the museum things, if I'm trading with a ship, I'm not trading them my favorite paddle. I'm going to trade them the one I don't like, the one that doesn't work.

And then they're going to take it back and say, hey, this is what they're using. No!

[DUBSIDE]
So tell me about some of the, your favorite places that you've paddled. You paddled like other countries all around the world.

[CHUCK]
My favorite place to paddle is the same as my favorite meal. It's the next place or the next meal.

[DUBSIDE]
OK, that's a good answer.

[CHUCK]
I've been all over the place. The Northern Great Lakes is my favorite. I can get to easily and possibly my favorite ever.

I've been to Hawaii all over the Caribbean, all over the place. But the Northern Great Lakes is beautiful and remote. And nice, clear water, generally not a lot of people. And it's hard to beat.

[DUBSIDE]
Northern Great Lakes would be a lot of Lake Superior, the Northern Great Lake.

[CHUCK]
Lake Superior, North Channel, Georgian Bay. It's all more or less the same rock formation.

And it's a lot of granite, a lot of basalt and a lot of evergreen trees, crystal clear, usually cold water, maybe really cold water. And part of it is more or less born and raised here. So it's my home stomping grounds.

But the other part is anywhere I've ever been. I'm always comparing it to Northern Georgian Bay or the North Channel.

[DUBSIDE]
I compare where I go paddling to Philadelphia. That's where I started paddling. And so the Great Lakes, for people who aren't familiar with it, these are, this is, it's a lake, but this is serious water.

And this is, the weather can kick up and you've got like, you know, life threatening stuff going on, even though it's a lake.

[CHUCK]
Possibly in minutes. And Lake Superior is 300 some odd miles long. Lake Erie is somewhat smaller, but it's very shallow.

A good wind might drop the water six feet in an hour or two. It's not a tide, it's a seiche.

[DUBSIDE]
Drop the level of the water at six feet within an hour. 

[CHUCK] 
Yeah. 

[DUBSIDE] 
Okay.

[CHUCK]
And if you're out paddling and now you've got to walk to shore through the mud, you've got a bit of a problem.

[DUBSIDE]
And this is not following any tide table. This is just a weather thing.

[CHUCK]
No. This is just the wind. So pay attention. And Lake Superior in particular makes its own weather. It's a very cold body of water.

It's about 45 degrees year round. So in the summer, you might have 100 degree air coming off the Great Plains and then hitting this 45 degree water and then there's chaos. It's fun.

[DUBSIDE]
Okay, yeah. And there is surf to be found on the Great Lakes. Tell me about that.

[CHUCK]
Two to three foot surf is normal and common. Six to eight foot surf is a fairly regular occurrence spring and fall, sometimes in the summer. But we can have beautiful ocean style waves on beautiful sand beaches.

The interesting part is we don't have the fetch of the oceans. The wind doesn't blow over the water for the same distance.

So the waves get very close together. And the ocean, there might be an 11 or 12 second period between the waves. So if you have a problem, you've got 10 seconds to sort it out.

On the Great Lakes, three, four or five seconds is a more normal thing. So if you got creamed by a wave and you're laying there on the beach, you've got three seconds to run.

And six or eight footer at a three or four second period. Think about your skills and your ability to get out of there if you need to. You don't have time to set anything up. You've just got to run. 

Most of my kayaks have huge cockpits, far bigger than they should. So if I'm surfing, I can hit the beach and jump out of my kayak and run.

If I've got a nice little ocean cockpit, I'm just going to get pummeled by the next three waves. And that's not fun.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah, I've been in places, times paddling. And you watch how fast people can get out of their kayak. As we get older, we're taking a lot of time and they can get real easy and slow.

So a surf situation is very demanding. If you got people on the shore to grab you and pull you up before the next wave hits, that makes it easy. But to get out by yourself, you have the bigger cockpit, the keyhole you can just jump out of faster.

But you still have to have the fitness.

[CHUCK]
You've got to be able to do it.

[DUBSIDE]
Yeah. Yeah. All right.

[CHUCK]
And I've been broken a lot of ways, but so far, never in surf. Tremendous amount of respect.

[DUBSIDE]
Do you use… did you do a lot of surfing per se?

[CHUCK]
I used to. I'm getting older and thinking too much. Becoming aware of my own mortality.

[DUBSIDE]
Would you use a Greenland paddle surfing?

[CHUCK]
Yes. Yes.

[DUBSIDE]
OK.

[CHUCK]
That's another thing we'll argue about is Greenland paddles tend to be optimized for covering a lot of miles. And the European blades come from the whitewater tradition. They're made to accelerate.

In surf, it's mostly just acceleration. But most of the time when I'm playing in surf, I want to be using the gear I'm really going to be using if I'm out. And I'll usually have a much more beefy surf paddle.

And I've got some designs I like.

[DUBSIDE]
It's beefier, like a thicker piece of wood through the middle, so it's just stronger.

[CHUCK]
It's thicker. It's stronger. It's more buoyant.

The buoyancy matters if I'm upside down and getting clobbered. I want a paddle that's going to orient to the surface a little more strongly than my cruising paddle. And I also prefer a shoulderless paddle in surf.

It's easier for me to quickly extend. But there's a steep learning curve.

[DUBSIDE]
I was going to ask you about the difference between shoulders and unshouldered. So unshouldered, it's a gradual taper into the middle. There's not one little like corner edge there.

But a shoulder paddle, you've got really defined edges that you grab your hands, three fingers over the edge and fourth finger and thumb around the edge. So you're saying without that shoulder, it's easier just to extend?

[CHUCK]
It's easier to extend. The shoulder indexes the paddle basically to normal, neutral cruising position. Your hands are centered on the paddle.

In surf, I almost never want my hands centered on the paddle.

[DUBSIDE]
So you move them all around all the time.

[CHUCK]
I want an extended paddle on one side or the other. And I don't want my hands to trip over anything as I'm moving the paddle around.

[DUBSIDE]
I haven't done enough surf to really find that. But yeah, OK, unshouldered for surfing. That's an interesting idea.

[CHUCK]
The learning curve is I have thrown my paddle 20 feet to the side because I didn't grab it as it went through my hand because there's nothing to index. There is a learning curve.

[DUBSIDE]
Explain that again. What happened?

[CHUCK]
As I'm moving my paddle through my hands. 

[DUBSIDE] 
OK, on an unshouldered paddle. 

[CHUCK] 
On a shoulderless unshouldered paddle.

Basically, I set my hand to whatever size I want, where the paddle is going to be when it passes through. So I catch it with the thickness wherever I want it.

You've got to learn where that is.

[DUBSIDE]
If you go too far, you just miss, you lose the whole paddle.

[CHUCK]
Lose the whole paddle. I'm either holding on to it with one hand in a really poor position or more likely I just threw it 20 feet off to the side.

[DUBSIDE]
Which you do not want to do in surf generally.

[CHUCK]
Learning happens. Bring more than one paddle.

[DUBSIDE]
Well, my experience in surf is that things you put on the deck, unless they are really tied down, the surf will just steal them right off the deck. Sometimes even if they're tethered on, it'll pull the hook out.

[CHUCK]
Absolutely.

[DUBSIDE] 
How do you keep a spare paddle from getting stolen by the waves?

[CHUCK]
Generally, I've got a spare full-size paddle on the deck in front of me.

[DUBSIDE]
OK.

[CHUCK]
And my deck rigging, I've got basically a loop up near the bow. And the traditional Greenland deck rigging and back with a couple of sliders. No bungee cords.

It's usually leather. And that's all arranged so I can stuff my paddle under the bow bungee and bring it back under the deck rigging and back of me.

And move the sliders out to tighten everything up. And it is secure.

I've never lost a paddle off my deck. But it's fiddly work to make it right. But if it's not there when I need it, I'm in a world of hurt.

[DUBSIDE]
Well, yeah. If your deck line is bungees, over time they get looser and looser and then you could stick something under them, but the surf doesn't really care. That's going to blast it right out.

[CHUCK]
Even brand new. If it's bungees, just take your stuff to the beach and throw it in. It's the same effect.

[DUBSIDE]
All right. Mm hmm. And so you surf with a skin on frame kayak?

[CHUCK] 
Yes. 

[DUBSIDE] 
Are there some designs that would be better in the surf or do you? 

[CHUCK]
Absolutely.

My favorite kayak is one from the Hunterian Museum and they lost the records in a fire around 1900. They don't know anything else other than it came from Greenland.

I built it because it's got the really strongly upswept ends.

And I had no idea what its paddling characteristics would be. And in flat water, it is absolutely horrible. It's uncontrollable.

It weathercocks. It blows all over the place. As soon as the waves hit a foot and a half high or I'm in surf, it is by far my favorite kayak I've ever been in.

It's designed to use the waves for steering and control. And in big surf, I can't make it angry. I think it's 19 inches wide, something like that.

There's not much for the waves to grab. And if I'm surfing a wave and lean forward, the bow of the kayak will come to about six inches below the waterline. I'm starting a pearl or starting a pitch pole.

But my kayak stays there. I can't make it angry. I can't push that bow any farther down. It's stable six inches below. It's stable surfing backwards, which in a skin-on frame, unheard of. No, that's... 

[DUBSIDE]
Now, where did this guy come from?

[CHUCK]
I’d have to look in Harvey Golden's book, but there's only a couple from the Hunterian Museum in Scotland.

And it's fascinating to learn how to use it. And that's the kayak I paddle 80 or 90 percent of the time just because in flat water, it's an outright challenge. It challenges my skills. In rough water, it's just fun.

[DUBSIDE]
I'll have to look up that one. Well, this has been a very enlightening discussion here, and we can wrap this up. 

[CHUCK]
Hopefully it was useful.

[DUBSIDE]
Oh, absolutely. Yes, I'm sure there's some insights in there. All right.

Well, thank you very much for talking to me and being on the Dubcast with Dubside. 

[CHUCK]
Thank you, Dubside. 

[DUBSIDE]
All right.

That is Chuck Smith. Interviewed September of 2025 at the Traditional Paddlers Gathering in Minnesota. And the skin-on frame he talks about right at the end there, it is in Harvey Golden's Kayaks of Greenland.

I believe that is number 26 on page 218. It's the Hunterian Museum number E-102 kayak. And Harvey has some very complimentary things to say about how that kayak handles and how it looks.

He also says it's quite difficult to build a kayak like that with the upswept ends. Thank you for listening to the Dubcast with Dubside.